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Glue for Woofer Surrounds (ALS Original)

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Martin1970

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Post Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:03 am

Glue for Woofer Surrounds (ALS Original)

The Speakers:
Dynavox honeycombs, Original Amazings

The Problems:
(1)All of the glue is dried out and letting go on the surrounds.
(2)The old glue is gravelly and won't allow regluing in some areas.

The Questions:
(1) What's the best replacement glue?
(2)Any easy way to remove the old glue without damaging the honeycomb or woofer?
(3) How do you hold the surround and the honeycomb together while the glue dries?

Notes:
The surrounds are perfect otherwise, the only problem is the glue.
Did a few quick searches; lots out there about bad surrounds; didn't find any posts about this.

thanks, martin
Carver: ALS plat upgrades, TX-11a, C-9, C-1
Sunfire: Cinema Grand Sig 400 Seven x2
Rane: RPM88 26Z x3
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treitz3

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"Julian"
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Post Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:14 pm

Hmmm, good question Martin.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet ... er=340-078

If they were my speakers, I would use the rubber cement glue linked above for your particular application. Just be sure to put an even layer on without any excessive buildup. As far as the removal of the glue is concerned? Oh boy. #-o

That can be a hit or miss, depending on the condition of the surround and how dried up and flaky the glue is. Obviously, you can use a razor blade to remove any old glue off metal. You can even follow up with one or a combination of products [used separately] such as orange oil, goof-off or goo gone, wiping with a final go of denatured alcohol to assure the best bond. Now the tricky part....the surrounds. Take extreme caution and see what glue flakes you can remove using a toothbrush along with the soft bending of the outer areas of the surround where the glue is [so you can break up some of the old brittle glue]. You might want to dip said toothbrush [test a small area first!] in either orange oil, goof-off or goo gone but I wouldn't expect the end result to be 100% old glue-free and don't expect it to be instantaneous either. Basically, get as much of the glue and glue flakes off as you can. Another thing you can try is adding heat via a hair dryer being sure not to overheat, followed by putting ice that's inside a plastic bag on the glue removal areas. You can try alternating this a few times in a particular area to see if this will help ease the in the glue removal process. When you have exhausted all efforts in the glue removal, thoroughly clean the surrounds with denatured alcohol and let sit until completely dry.

I'll be honest, the surround won't look pretty where the old glue is but if you can get the bulk of the old glue off, the rubber cement will at the very least have a solid bond. When you do go to glue, see if you have something round to add a bit of weight all around the glue areas. Something like a mixing bowl or bucket, possibly a plate......you get the picture.....and be sure not to move each repair for at least 24 hours. Check occasionally to insure that the parts glued together have not shifted in any way

One more thing. If you have any way to take pictures to document said repair, you would be helping other forum members with the same issue years down the road. This is definitely not a requirement but it would be a cool thing to get a repair like this documented, especially from a guy who is extremely meticulous in what he does. :wink:
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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Chauss

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Post Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:37 pm

Re: Glue for Woofer Surrounds (ALS Original)

Last edited by Chauss on Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Good sound—like good music, good wine and good fellowship—is meant to be shared.
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treitz3

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Post Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:41 pm

Dan, I saw that as well but isn't that the same type of glue that gets brittle over time? That was what caused this issue to begin with. I was trying to avoid him having to repeat this procedure in the future. The rubber cement would be more of a permanent bond and less subjected to getting brittle as time marches on..... :-s

What are your thoughts?

Oh Martin, I wouldn't rule out using some fine sandpaper to the affected areas when removing the glue either. Just use common sense and a lot of patience when trying this though...
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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Chauss

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Post Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:48 pm

Re: Glue for Woofer Surrounds (ALS Original)

I think the stuff I posted is what the manufacturers use. It lasted X years to that point....so it should last that long again - at least in theory. Rubber cement sticks to itself REAL well,,,,but how well does it stick to the cone and surround and frame? I have no idea....
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Good sound—like good music, good wine and good fellowship—is meant to be shared.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" Albert Einstein
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treitz3

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Post Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:06 pm

In the photographic industry I was in, we used the rubber compound for applications much like this and the compound had less of an issue with sticking to things when dry than most every glue that had the consistency of Elmer's glue [like the other one we are talking about]. Life expectancy was lengthened and gaps/imperfections were reduced greatly. It was a one time shot, provided the seal wasn't abused, cut or damaged by forces that weren't appropriate to the application. I'm sure either would be a good choice of glue for this repair and we'll leave that decision up to Martin.

His biggest challenge will be trying to remove as much of the old glue as possible. I can tell you now, that ain't gonna be as easy as it sounds.
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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Chauss

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Post Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:29 pm

Re: Glue for Woofer Surrounds (ALS Original)

My only thought on NOT using rubber cement is that it sticks "instantly"...no chance to "adjust" the surround ..the cone MUST be centered to the voice coil and surround. Some even recommend removing the dust cap and using shims on the VC to ensure it remains centered- even though the cone should be self centering from the voice coil.

Martin probably has plenty of time to research this further....aren't the surrounds for ALIII's almost impossible to get? #-o
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Good sound—like good music, good wine and good fellowship—is meant to be shared.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" Albert Einstein
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treitz3

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Post Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:45 pm

You have some good points. He's got the originals with the honeycomb, not the ALIII's and the OEM drivers for those are still available. I just figure he's wanting to save a few bucks repairing them himself.
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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Chauss

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Post Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:01 pm

Re: Glue for Woofer Surrounds (ALS Original)

Got'cha- the labor from a competent speaker shop should not be too stiff just to "glue" new surrounds in.....I would go that route if it were me. Just my .02. (if they "F" them up...THEY replace them! :D )
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Good sound—like good music, good wine and good fellowship—is meant to be shared.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" Albert Einstein
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Martin1970

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Post Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:05 pm

Re: Glue for Woofer Surrounds (ALS Original)

First off, thanks for all the suggestions thus far.
I honestly expected this to be old hat and get a link to a post where this has been done already.

No one has had to reglue a set of surrounds on a FLAT Amazing original?
Mike?
Angelo?
Anyway, since it's not that straightforward, I'll get some pics to make it clearer.

Chauss wrote:My only thought on NOT using rubber cement is that it sticks "instantly"...no chance to "adjust" the surround

Great insight. I've tried gluing one of these with super glue (it comes apart after a week) and it's virtually impossible to line them up on the first go.
I don't mind if they come apart in 10 years, maybe by then I'll be able to afford Don's old Legacys when he upgrades to IRS Vs.

And Tom, you're correct. $100 each is idiotic money if I just need a bit of glue here and there.

As far as a 'competent' shop....
I live in Savannah. There's no such thing as competent in the service industry here.
I should know, I'm one of them :)
Last edited by Martin1970 on Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Carver: ALS plat upgrades, TX-11a, C-9, C-1
Sunfire: Cinema Grand Sig 400 Seven x2
Rane: RPM88 26Z x3
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Chauss

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Post Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:14 pm

Re: Glue for Woofer Surrounds (ALS Original)

Martin- Go for it man! I am sure you can handle it- just do plenty of research first so you have a "plan". I am an "ex" engineer...so.... you know what I am talking about! :D
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Good sound—like good music, good wine and good fellowship—is meant to be shared.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" Albert Einstein
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mbskeam

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Post Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:01 pm

Re: Glue for Woofer Surrounds (ALS Original)

I've only seen pics of these woofers, not up close.
what is the surround made of, foam or rubber?
silicone may work
your best bet would be to see if you can try and find like materials and glue them together as test samples.
then put these to a stress test, seeing witch adhesive holds best.
be careful of solutions on the surrounds, this may degrade them, you may not see/hear this for days or weeks
Mbskeam


#1 BLACK BEAUTY's made by the man, the myth, the legend Bob Carver
CARVER: TFM-75, TFM-45(3), SD/A-490T
SUNFIRE: Tube pre
2 sets of ALS'3, set of SILVERS, set of PLATS
AUDIOCONTROL: phase coupled activator
KENWOOD: BASIC M2a (2)

“Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.”
― Aristophanes

The only thing I'll feel......will be the RECOIL
Necronomicon Ex-Mortis....... Klaatu Barada Nikkto
"We should seek the greatest value of our action"
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Martin1970

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Post Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:47 pm

Re: Glue for Woofer Surrounds (ALS Original)

The surrounds are detached only along portions of the perimeter.
They are made of foam and are still very pliable as you can see here.
penny.jpg
penny.jpg (262.56 KiB) Viewed 1193 times


Here's what the outside edge is doing.
outer.jpg
outer.jpg (113.7 KiB) Viewed 1193 times


This is what happens if you don't line them up perfectly when you glue.
Notice how the inner edge is out of round'?
It's OK because it's super glue which doesn't stay glued.
oblong.jpg


Here you see a part that hasn't come unglued yet.
I'd like to be able to put glue in this lip BEFORE if comes apart.
edge arrow.JPG
edge arrow.JPG (40.58 KiB) Viewed 1193 times


Preferably something that is clear and watery
and can be put in a syringe or applicator with a narrow tip,
so I can inject it into the gap in the previous photo.
Like this super glue.
glue.jpg
glue.jpg (129.73 KiB) Viewed 1193 times


Anyone know of something that meets all of those criteria?

clear
safe on foam surrounds
takes time to set
thin and watery
"syringeable" or has a fine point applicator.

I might be able to wedge something behind the honeycombs so they'll stay still while I put something EXACTLY the right size on top to hold the surround while the glue sets.

It's still hard to believe no one else has done this already.
Hate to be reinventing the wheel.
Carver: ALS plat upgrades, TX-11a, C-9, C-1
Sunfire: Cinema Grand Sig 400 Seven x2
Rane: RPM88 26Z x3
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treitz3

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"Julian"
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Post Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:55 pm

If it were me, I would refer to my original recommendations or replace the woofer, Martin. You can purchase an applicator like the one you mention online but I know of no clear adhesive other than silicone [which is VERY messy] that will work in this application. Just make sure that constant pressure is on the surrounds during the drying cycle, even if you have to custom make a jig that works for you.
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
<<

mbskeam

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Post Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:14 pm

Re: Glue for Woofer Surrounds (ALS Original)

be careful of superglue, it will harden the foam, causing it to crack...

http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/8337.html

http://www.simplyspeakers.com/speaker-r ... -3035.html

you might look at these
Mbskeam


#1 BLACK BEAUTY's made by the man, the myth, the legend Bob Carver
CARVER: TFM-75, TFM-45(3), SD/A-490T
SUNFIRE: Tube pre
2 sets of ALS'3, set of SILVERS, set of PLATS
AUDIOCONTROL: phase coupled activator
KENWOOD: BASIC M2a (2)

“Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.”
― Aristophanes

The only thing I'll feel......will be the RECOIL
Necronomicon Ex-Mortis....... Klaatu Barada Nikkto
"We should seek the greatest value of our action"
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