?? Subwoofer KIT Build ?? CarverFest 2018

12th Annual CARVERFEST 2018 September 5th - 19th

Who would be interested in a Subwoofer Build for CarverFest 2018 ??

YES: I'm in !!!
13
100%
NO: Not interested.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 13

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Toy Maker
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?? Subwoofer KIT Build ?? CarverFest 2018

Post by Toy Maker » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:01 am

I'm throwing this out there... I want to know if there is any interest in a custom subwoofer build for 2018.
I have a few ideas as far as design that I've been developing in my head over the last few years. The goal would be to keep the kit cost at or below $500

For those that got a chance to hear what my little 6.5" woofers could do on the speakers we brought a few years ago, you know I loves me some BASS !!!
In the words of The Great Rabbit, "HOLY SHIT, those things go low!"



(Added)
This subwoofer concept has been floating around in my head for about 6 years now. My son and I have been talking for years about building an "affordable" miniature of the best sub on the market. Since I'm not about to run out and spend $12,000 for a subwoofer,we've been planning to build our own mini version...

One of the biggest issues that comes in when designing anything like this is budget. The budget can immediately slap a pair of handcuffs on you. This project is no different.

After budget, there are 3 more factors that have to be addressed that each have their own limiting factors. Below are the 4 factors that will determine what this subwoofer can and "can not" be. I have put them in the order I feel is most important to me, as well as most practical for this project.

1) Budget
2) Size
3) Frequency Response
4) Sensitivity

1st is the budget, obviously. No $750 drivers in this sub!!
2nd is size. I want this subwoofer to be small but still be impressive.
3rd is Frequency Response. I want its F3 to be as low as possible, while keeping it a small package.
4th is Sensitivity. The subwoofer's volume is important, however without those $750 drivers, this will be compromised no matter what, the question is just how much...

Honestly, numbers 3 & 4 (to me) are about finding the right balance of both.

It's a 4-way juggling act. Every single decision and part has an effect on every other. It truly becomes a game of compromises. Without compromise, we'd all be heading to the store to buy the $12,000 sub wouldn't we. Even the small 6" drivers I really want to use are too expensive for a $500 budget. So I spent most of the day researching what the next best driver might be and what I was going to have compromise by switching. The compromises were not as terrible as I expected. The drivers cost a fraction of the price. The box will actually be able to be slightly smaller. We will have higher sensitivity, but we will lose a little of the lowest frequencies. My goal was to keep it small, and still keep an F3 of 30Hz or lower. On a budget... not being a big sub with big drivers, it's pretty hard to stay below 30. Within budget, smaller enclosure, higher sensitivity at the expense of 3Hz. I feel that is a very reasonable compromise.

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radioeng2
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Re: ?? Subwoofer Build ?? CarverFest 2018

Post by radioeng2 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:55 am

Sounds interesting. That little guy did kick! Look forward to hearing more of what you're planning.

Mark
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Re: ?? Subwoofer Build ?? CarverFest 2018

Post by Magnaryder » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:08 am

James it would be nice to have a companion piece to integrate with the CF speakers....if that's possible

ray
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Re: ?? Subwoofer Build ?? CarverFest 2018

Post by Toy Maker » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:13 am

Magnaryder wrote:James it would be nice to have a companion piece to integrate with the CF speakers....if that's possible

ray
Pretty much the plan. For the kit version, I'm thinking possibly 2.1 internal amplifier as well ??? :-k :-k :-k

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Re: ?? Subwoofer Build ?? CarverFest 2018

Post by Shortcake » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:07 pm

I will play follower and see what my 'guys' do, since they will be the ones 'helping' me lol. Still trying to get a hold of Angelo for the kit for the tube amp...
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Re: ?? Subwoofer Build ?? CarverFest 2018

Post by packratt » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:36 pm

If it will be available to non attendees like the other speaker kit was I'll say I'm interested pending price. At this time I doubt I'll be able to attend.

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Re: ?? Subwoofer Build ?? CarverFest 2018

Post by BrianT » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:47 pm

James

I would love to go for it, but I do have a major problem of getting it back to Canada
shipping cost are fu*king crazy, so for that reason I would really have to think about it.

Hope to see you at CF18 Brian
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Re: ?? Subwoofer Build ?? CarverFest 2018

Post by Toy Maker » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:42 pm

packratt wrote:If it will be available to non attendees like the other speaker kit was I'll say I'm interested pending price. At this time I doubt I'll be able to attend.
If this project goes through, than YES, more than likely we will make the same offer across both forums.
Might be a good idea to make a post over there as well to see if there are any takers I guess...

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Re: ?? Subwoofer Build ?? CarverFest 2018

Post by packratt » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:10 pm

[quote="Toy Maker"][quote="packratt"]If it will be available to non attendees like the other speaker kit was I'll say I'm interested pending price. At this time I doubt I'll be able to attend.[/quote]

If this project goes through, than YES, more than likely we will make the same offer across both forums.
Might be a good idea to make a post over there as well to see if there are any takers I guess...[/quote]

I missed the estimated price in your first post when I first read it. If it is in that ball park I'm in and hit the poll.

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Re: ?? Subwoofer KIT Build ?? CarverFest 2018

Post by Toy Maker » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:23 pm

I have added a this info to the 1st post.

This subwoofer concept has been floating around in my head for about 6 years now. My son and I have been talking for years about building an "affordable" miniature of the best sub on the market. Since I'm not about to run out and spend $12,000 for a subwoofer,we've been planning to build our own mini version...

One of the biggest issues that comes in when designing anything like this is budget. The budget can immediately slap a pair of handcuffs on you. This project is no different.

After budget, there are 3 more factors that have to be addressed that each have their own limiting factors. Below are the 4 factors that will determine what this subwoofer can and "can not" be. I have put them in the order I feel is most important to me, as well as most practical for this project.

1) Budget
2) Size
3) Frequency Response
4) Sensitivity

1st is the budget, obviously. No $750 drivers in this sub!!
2nd is size. I want this subwoofer to be small but still be impressive.
3rd is Frequency Response. I want its F3 to be as low as possible, while keeping it a small package.
4th is Sensitivity. The subwoofer's volume is important, however without those $750 drivers, this will be compromised no matter what, the question is just how much...

Honestly, numbers 3 & 4 (to me) are about finding the right balance of both.

It's a 4-way juggling act. Every single decision and part has an effect on every other. It truly becomes a game of compromises. Without compromise, we'd all be heading to the store to buy the $12,000 sub wouldn't we. Even the small 6" drivers I really want to use are too expensive for a $500 budget. So I spent most of the day researching what the next best driver might be and what I was going to have compromise by switching. The compromises were not as terrible as I expected. The drivers cost a fraction of the price. The box will actually be able to be slightly smaller. We will have higher sensitivity, but we will lose a little of the lowest frequencies. My goal was to keep it small, and still keep an F3 of 30Hz or lower. On a budget... not being a big sub with big drivers, it's pretty hard to stay below 30. Within budget, smaller enclosure, higher sensitivity at the expense of 3Hz. I feel that is a very reasonable compromise.

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Re: ?? Subwoofer KIT Build ?? CarverFest 2018

Post by Robert R » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:08 pm

30 Hz is the fundamental tone of the second-lowest white key on a piano. But when you hear it live on a piano, even a 10' concert grand, you are aware of little or nothing of the fundamental – mostly it's overtones, and a complex mass of sympathetic responses from the other (always undamped) neighboring bass strings. The actual B is a VERY low note - bass drums and string basses don't reach quite as low as 30Hz; the contra-bassoon, the lowest instrument in any full symphony orchestra, can play down to the Bb at around 29 Hz. So for most music solid response down to about 29-30Hz is low enough.

Some might want to check their perception on this subject. The lowest note on a standard guitar is usually tuned to the E that's around 82 Hz. I suspect that a fair number of guys, when they hear a bass play the E that's an octave below that, actually think they are hearing some note around 30 Hz, not the actual 41 Hz. 41 is quite a low note. Notes much below 30 (even down to below 17Hz) only occur in certain organ music, (or in non-musical theatrical effects, or just plain noise) and barely sound like notes at all – they are so unimaginably low that at some point they cease to be perceived (at least by me) as musical tones, and just become a pressure wave that one's whole body is aware of. If you're an organ music fan (I'm something of one) you need a sub that goes way down there. But for just about anything else in the everyday world of music, things to listen for below 30Hz just aren't there. You might miss out on the rumble of the hall's A/C plant, or the full impact of the passing of the subway train. Personally, I can gladly forgo those – in fact I prefer to.

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Re: ?? Subwoofer KIT Build ?? CarverFest 2018

Post by jjptkd » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:45 am

Since your last sub thread I've experimented around a little with the Sundown SA drivers, specifically the SA-12 and SA-15. First I replaced a Sunfire driver in a 13" cubed Signature cabinet and was quite impressed; seemed to play some of the higher notes better and overall seemed like it put out a little more volume but both of those were at the slight cost of low frequency response. It still hit plenty low, just not quite as low as the stock Sunfire driver. To me, in my small room the change in output and quality of upper bass was worth the trade off. My experiment was done with just a straight swap of the drivers in an otherwise stock Sunfire Signature sub cabinet, amplifier and passive.

I brought a driver over to Bill Flannery to try out and test as a possible replacement option for some of his customers and although he was impressed overall with the performance he thought it did not offer low enough frequency response and the complexity of wiring a dual voice coil driver might overwhelm and possibly create some problems for the average person to install and did not want to be liable for people damaging their equipment, main reason for not recommending them.

My second experiment with the SA-12 was in a pre-built car audio sub cabinet off of eBay, quite a bit larger with a slot port tuned to 32hz? if I remember correctly and output seemed to double but at an even greater cost to low frequency response. In my room and to my ears I really didn't notice the low frequency response loss in the Sunfire cabinet, at least it was not really obvious where as the larger cabinet tuned higher it was noticeable.

Anyway, I guess my point here is the Sundown drivers were mentioned in the previous sub thread and after playing around with a couple of them in a few configurations I'd say they are at the very least comparable to the Sunfire drivers and if they were implemented in the proper cabinet designed for the driver I could see them being a nice affordable option.
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Re: ?? Subwoofer KIT Build ?? CarverFest 2018

Post by Robert R » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:48 pm

To bump this thread back to what it is started out as, namely Toymaker's nascent sub plans, I'd like to suggest that if there is to be a model that is sold in pairs that complement the CF speakers, perhaps there should be the option to buy stands that are compatible with the original type, reduced to the proper length for mounting the speakers atop the subs, thus using them for the base, as well as the bass.

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Re: ?? Subwoofer KIT Build ?? CarverFest 2018

Post by radioeng2 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:40 am

And I'd say again, pulling from Roberts point, that ultimate low extension may be a selling point sort of, but way more material is present up at 100hz +. And if the idea is to blend well with the CF speakers, then it's important. I have no doubt that's in mind here, but I'd like to restate it for those that might start with looking at the low end numbers. I keep hearing (way more than this project) the word 'subwoofer' tossed around when 'woofer' is way more appropriate for what's being done.

What if not just small size but also blending well up higher, as many speakers need that, were calling cards of the design?

Another thought I had was if married with the CF speaker, then what if it became the stand? A thin tall matching box size. Which brings to mind a transmission line design. They are a bit tricky, but when done well they (a TL) can really, substantially add kick down low.

Mark
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Re: ?? Subwoofer KIT Build ?? CarverFest 2018

Post by Robert R » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:48 am

Amen about the use of the term 'subwoofer', Mark. So sick of seeing any POS being called a "sub" when it's dubious if it should even be called a woofer.
A great step in the right direction was Bob's coining of his term "True subwoofer" - a master stroke.

RR
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