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About horns

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tinpan

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TFM-45

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Location: Spotsylvania, VA

Post Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:37 pm

About horns

So, been pm'ing back and forth with MRHP and he is asking about horns. Since it can be a long topic I thought I would start a thread on it here. I qualify my observations with the following, I am not technical and there is still a lot I don't know, I have found life is easier for me to just memorize the order on plugging stuff together and still having it work than to actually try to understand why it works.

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This is an Altec Voice of the Theater A5 system. There are 5 components that make it up, the bass bin, the horn, the crossover the bass bin driver and the horn driver.

It features an 828 bass bin with a 416 driver and a 500Hz crossover

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You can see my favorite speaker cables, the blue 47 labs cable entering the crossover located on the back of the bass bin. Everything 500Hz and lower goes through the bass bin. Everything higher than that goes through the horn. Usually you'll see 511b horns and 808 driver. In that config they are called A7's. Mine have the 803 horns and 288 drivers so these are A5's

The horns and the horn drivers also play a role. The 511b horns are rated for 500Hz and the 803 and 1003 cut over at 300 Hz. The 8 means an 8 cell horn, the 10 means a 10 cell horn.

This driver is an Altec 288-c which is rated for 40 watts.

This is pretty much the basic config for speakers. I have to run now, but we'll expand on this later
Tinpan

HT - Sunfire TG IV, Sunfire Cinema Grand Sig. 400 x 5, Oppo 93, Klipsch LaScala (3), Cornwalls (2), SW-12, Sony 60" LCD

2 channel - AN L2 Pre-amp, AN Interstage Mono Blocks 300b PSE, AN 2.1 DAC, Oppo DV-981HD, Lowther PM4a/Azurahorn/SentryIV

2 channel - AN L3 Signature Line stage, AN Interstage Mono Blocks 300b PSE, AN Sig. DAC 3.1 , AN Sig. Phono Stage, Sota Comet TT, Altec A5's

2 channel - empty, Klipschorns

2 channel - Audio Note Kit 1 300b SET, Audio Note DAC 2.1, Altec A4's
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tinpan

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TFM-45

Posts: 577

Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:48 am

Location: Spotsylvania, VA

Post Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:53 pm

Re: About horns

The above system is very efficient and only needs 2 to 3 watts to power it.

Image
At the other end of the spectrum are these.I have always toyed with building a pair the Altec A6's but using the Altec 299-8a horns driver. That horn driver is rated at 100watts and it would be fun to see what the Cherry 260's would sound like on that system.
Tinpan

HT - Sunfire TG IV, Sunfire Cinema Grand Sig. 400 x 5, Oppo 93, Klipsch LaScala (3), Cornwalls (2), SW-12, Sony 60" LCD

2 channel - AN L2 Pre-amp, AN Interstage Mono Blocks 300b PSE, AN 2.1 DAC, Oppo DV-981HD, Lowther PM4a/Azurahorn/SentryIV

2 channel - AN L3 Signature Line stage, AN Interstage Mono Blocks 300b PSE, AN Sig. DAC 3.1 , AN Sig. Phono Stage, Sota Comet TT, Altec A5's

2 channel - empty, Klipschorns

2 channel - Audio Note Kit 1 300b SET, Audio Note DAC 2.1, Altec A4's
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jjptkd

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SILVER-7 TUBE AMP

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Post Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:16 pm

Re: About horns

I love my Klipsch speakers (w/ horns) and lust after a pair of actively crossed over Jubilees with the huge 402 horn.. =P~ =P~ =P~ =P~ Some day.. 8)
Attachments
jubilee.jpg
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klipsch-jubilee_223200.jpg
klipsch-jubilee_223200.jpg (44.91 KiB) Viewed 322 times
Sunfire TGP-III
Sunfire 405x5
PS Audio DL-III DAC
(2 Pairs) Klipsch Chorus II's
Klipsch RSW 15
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MRHP

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TFM-75

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Location: Buzzard Creek Ky

Post Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:25 pm

Re: About horns

As the saying goes...."Im all ears" :lol: :lol:

Never heard a set of horns and hope to get a chance some day soon. The fact that they are efficient enough to run on 2 or 3 wpc is amazing.
TFM-75 serial #0001
PT-2400 serial #0001
Baby Black serial #0001
A Lightstar or two
Cherry/260's
Carver 490t
Sunfire Tube preamp
ProJect TT Tube preamp
DENON DP-62L TurnTable
Dual CS5000 Turn Table
DQ-20's
Douglas Cables
OK ERIC, LET GO OF THE MOUSE AND BACK AWAY FROM YOUR PC WITH YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR. NOW SLOWLY LAY FACE DOWN ON THE FLOOR!!!! - Snoop65
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MRHP

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TFM-75

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Post Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:22 am

Re: About horns

There was an old theatre here in my home town...the building is in bad shape but I should probably investigate.
TFM-75 serial #0001
PT-2400 serial #0001
Baby Black serial #0001
A Lightstar or two
Cherry/260's
Carver 490t
Sunfire Tube preamp
ProJect TT Tube preamp
DENON DP-62L TurnTable
Dual CS5000 Turn Table
DQ-20's
Douglas Cables
OK ERIC, LET GO OF THE MOUSE AND BACK AWAY FROM YOUR PC WITH YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR. NOW SLOWLY LAY FACE DOWN ON THE FLOOR!!!! - Snoop65
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tinpan

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TFM-45

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Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:48 am

Location: Spotsylvania, VA

Post Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:35 am

Re: About horns

Yes you should, in the pecking order:

JBL = Rolls Royce
Altec = Cadilac
Electovoice & Klipsch = Chevy

The Klipsch line up is nice, I've had/have everything in the Heritage line but my $1,200 pair of A7''s kill my Khorns and you would be hard pressed to find a good pair for double the price of the A7's

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Here's the 511b horn you will typically see on the A7's. The sound coming out of compression horns, Altec 808 driver 288 driver and 511b, 203,803 and 1003 horns are to die for. The have the closest thing to live sound I have heard. The down side to the 511b horn is I don't like the imaging. It is very difficult to align the 511b horn, it has a very narrow sweet spot. The 203 horn is too forward, it really projects the sound forward and you need a deep room for them to sound right. The 803 and the 1003 have the best imaging in this series. Plus you get to use the 288 driver when you go to the large format horn which sounds better.

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These are the A4's, they are the next size up from the A5's. Twice as many bass drivers 4 vs 2 and twice as much cabinet. One of the downsides to bass reflex cabinets is you need lots of room for them to sound correctly. I am using an Altec 288-8K driver on this system. It uses a ferrite magnet verses the Alnico one listed above and this one is only rated at 15 watts, but it's rated at 109 db. It's a different sound than the Alnico version, but very sweet. These horn drivers are rated at 500hz to 20,000 hz and these bass bins do go down to 30hz verses 50hz for the 828 cabinet listed above. While you don't get the extreme highs and lows with either set up, the mid range and the mid bass is worth the sacrifices.
Tinpan

HT - Sunfire TG IV, Sunfire Cinema Grand Sig. 400 x 5, Oppo 93, Klipsch LaScala (3), Cornwalls (2), SW-12, Sony 60" LCD

2 channel - AN L2 Pre-amp, AN Interstage Mono Blocks 300b PSE, AN 2.1 DAC, Oppo DV-981HD, Lowther PM4a/Azurahorn/SentryIV

2 channel - AN L3 Signature Line stage, AN Interstage Mono Blocks 300b PSE, AN Sig. DAC 3.1 , AN Sig. Phono Stage, Sota Comet TT, Altec A5's

2 channel - empty, Klipschorns

2 channel - Audio Note Kit 1 300b SET, Audio Note DAC 2.1, Altec A4's
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jjptkd

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SILVER-7 TUBE AMP

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Location: Snohomish, WA

Post Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:31 am

Re: About horns

tinpan wrote:Yes you should, in the pecking order:

JBL = Rolls Royce
Altec = Cadilac
Electovoice & Klipsch = Chevy

The Klipsch line up is nice, I've had/have everything in the Heritage line but my $1,200 pair of A7''s kill my Khorns and you would be hard pressed to find a good pair for double the price of the A7's


I'm curious, have you done any upgrades or mods to the Klipsch speakers you have? My old Chorus II's blew the doors off of my buddies bone stock Klipschorn's and Belles but I heard a pair of Klipschorn's with the V-trac upgrade and it was night and day from a stock pair.
Sunfire TGP-III
Sunfire 405x5
PS Audio DL-III DAC
(2 Pairs) Klipsch Chorus II's
Klipsch RSW 15
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tinpan

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TFM-45

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Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:48 am

Location: Spotsylvania, VA

Post Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:42 pm

Re: About horns

No I haven't upgraded any of mine. If I kept my khorns I would probably order new crossovers from Crites. I have heard the Volti horns and while very nice, it's just not the sound I like. It's hard to describe hearing sound but the best way I can put it is, you know how you get your Chorus's cranking and you can feel the vibrations in a chair or the vibrations in your sternum? To feel that with one of my Klipsch speakers I'm hitting over 100 db. I can feel the same vibrations at 85 -89 db with either my A7's or my Lowthers....and it's not very loud. It's just a very different sound.

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The other big advantage is that I am stuck with what ever the crossover is set for on a Klipsch set up. Yes you can add active crossovers but that takes away from the music. I have these passive crossovers built that give me the fixed crossover ( same as a klipsch) but I can also use the attenuator to change the amount going to the horn or bass bin. Usually I'll balance one horn with the bass bin, then I'll balance the other horn with the horn. Then I'm left with what ever the remaining bass bin is set for. Not perfect but it let's you dial everything in on the Altec at about 500hz ( and above) and 250hz ( and above) on my Lowther.

It may seem like it but I am knocking Klipsch, I have a bunch of their speakers and the LaScalas are one of my all time favorite speakers. There is a lot you can do to tweak these speakers but at the end of the day, Altec just sounds better, JBL is better again. If you get a chance to hear one you'll see what I'm talking about.

One other differentiator is that most of the music I like really sounds good on a 300b SET amp. I've tried 3 different 300b amps on my khorns and they all sounded terrible...I mean muddy bass unlistenable terrible. When I put my Baby Black Beauty's on my khorns they sounded like they should, the bass was there, it was tight.

The best Klipsch sound I've put together was with my Sunfire 600 x 2 and my CF-3's. I ran the current taps to the tweeters and the voltage taps to the bass drivers. That amp and those speakers were probably the best Klispch set up I've put together. Gotta run, but my final conclusion is that Klipsch speakers like solid state or push pull tube amps.
Tinpan

HT - Sunfire TG IV, Sunfire Cinema Grand Sig. 400 x 5, Oppo 93, Klipsch LaScala (3), Cornwalls (2), SW-12, Sony 60" LCD

2 channel - AN L2 Pre-amp, AN Interstage Mono Blocks 300b PSE, AN 2.1 DAC, Oppo DV-981HD, Lowther PM4a/Azurahorn/SentryIV

2 channel - AN L3 Signature Line stage, AN Interstage Mono Blocks 300b PSE, AN Sig. DAC 3.1 , AN Sig. Phono Stage, Sota Comet TT, Altec A5's

2 channel - empty, Klipschorns

2 channel - Audio Note Kit 1 300b SET, Audio Note DAC 2.1, Altec A4's
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Chauss

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Post Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:06 pm

Re: About horns

I keep telling Snoop to buy a pair of these....... =P~
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He won't listen??? ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)
Forget about new- Wish I could afford them-used! Saw a used pair on the gon in the low 20's :(
Image
Good sound—like good music, good wine and good fellowship—is meant to be shared.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" Albert Einstein
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Snoop65

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Post Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:20 pm

Re: About horns

Hey Dan, my birthday is in August, you can get me a pair! :lol: :D
CARVER LIGHTSTAR REFERENCE+SUNFIRE CLASSIC TUBE PREAMPLIFIER+JBL XPL200+MUSIC HALL MMF-9.1+GRADO REFERENCE MASTER 1+CARVER SD/A 390t=WOW!!!!!!
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Snoop65

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Post Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:24 pm

Re: About horns

Excellent thread Tinpan! =D> =D> =D>
CARVER LIGHTSTAR REFERENCE+SUNFIRE CLASSIC TUBE PREAMPLIFIER+JBL XPL200+MUSIC HALL MMF-9.1+GRADO REFERENCE MASTER 1+CARVER SD/A 390t=WOW!!!!!!
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Chauss

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(pair of) SILVER-7t's

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Location: In my own little world.....

Post Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:07 pm

Re: About horns

Snoop65 wrote:Hey Dan, my birthday is in August, you can get me a pair! :lol: :D


Here ya go snoop!
Image :D
Image
Good sound—like good music, good wine and good fellowship—is meant to be shared.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" Albert Einstein
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Snoop65

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(pair of) SILVER-7t's

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Location: A galaxy far far away

Post Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:32 pm

Re: About horns

Chauss wrote:
Snoop65 wrote:Hey Dan, my birthday is in August, you can get me a pair! :lol: :D


Here ya go snoop!
Image :D

:-s [-X :lol: :lol: :lol:
CARVER LIGHTSTAR REFERENCE+SUNFIRE CLASSIC TUBE PREAMPLIFIER+JBL XPL200+MUSIC HALL MMF-9.1+GRADO REFERENCE MASTER 1+CARVER SD/A 390t=WOW!!!!!!
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MRHP

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TFM-75

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Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:36 pm

Location: Buzzard Creek Ky

Post Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:06 pm

Re: About horns

Snoop65 wrote:Excellent thread Tinpan! =D> =D> =D>


Ditto
TFM-75 serial #0001
PT-2400 serial #0001
Baby Black serial #0001
A Lightstar or two
Cherry/260's
Carver 490t
Sunfire Tube preamp
ProJect TT Tube preamp
DENON DP-62L TurnTable
Dual CS5000 Turn Table
DQ-20's
Douglas Cables
OK ERIC, LET GO OF THE MOUSE AND BACK AWAY FROM YOUR PC WITH YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR. NOW SLOWLY LAY FACE DOWN ON THE FLOOR!!!! - Snoop65
<<

tinpan

User avatar

TFM-45

Posts: 577

Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:48 am

Location: Spotsylvania, VA

Post Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:59 am

Re: About horns

I keep telling Snoop to buy a pair of these....... =P~

I think he should, Paypal has a deal six months same as cash \:D/
Tinpan

HT - Sunfire TG IV, Sunfire Cinema Grand Sig. 400 x 5, Oppo 93, Klipsch LaScala (3), Cornwalls (2), SW-12, Sony 60" LCD

2 channel - AN L2 Pre-amp, AN Interstage Mono Blocks 300b PSE, AN 2.1 DAC, Oppo DV-981HD, Lowther PM4a/Azurahorn/SentryIV

2 channel - AN L3 Signature Line stage, AN Interstage Mono Blocks 300b PSE, AN Sig. DAC 3.1 , AN Sig. Phono Stage, Sota Comet TT, Altec A5's

2 channel - empty, Klipschorns

2 channel - Audio Note Kit 1 300b SET, Audio Note DAC 2.1, Altec A4's
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